Politics are everywhere, especially in the world of game show music. Even game show memorabilia is available somewhere, but it seems that music is either not on the circut, or people use them for their own personal value. Collections do go up or down in value, however using music for trading purposes is just as bad as being able to download them off a P2P network, or other source. If the music could be purchased legally, there would be people out there other than people like us that will buy them. There have always been TV Themes collections out there for years.

Over the past few years i have been a theme/cue collector and have hated most of my time. I am not posting this just because i cant get the "big" name cues/themes that people have out there, and since the new release of some TPIR music, and obviously some people do have the whole collection on cds, However, those who do collect are limited by what they can get unless they have excellent sources, or work for a station or television show. As they say, the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

This is a game show community. Not everyone out there can even tolerate the sound of game show music, especially classic music. I know friends of mine that i have played music for, only go for the late 90s/present music, instead of 60s-80s music. I do not have a problem with people actually hearing a piece of music that hasnt been heard for years or never. GSN even stopped releasing music, so obviously there isnt really much of a calling for it. Being able to hear a piece of music isnt illegal, so why is it so taboo, and difficult to hear music from other collectors in the field of game shows. Collectors of other telelvision music are not as strict or anal about their collections enough to hored them to themselves or just to others that can give them something for it.

I understand video collections are a bit of an issue, i mean everyone cant just upload videos to the web for viewing, however there is nothing wrong with music. I have friends of mine who would be willing to offer space for that. I just cannot see why there is so much politics in game show music collecting. Nobody else wants to hear it, and the people that want to, can't. Something wrong there i think.

Just my 2 cents.

I know there are a lot of the big collectors out there who are calling me names and do not agree with me, and i respect their position. However, just really who is to blame. I know i have kept things for myself, however i i have never used them for trading purposes nor have people asked to hear them. But for the people who do have music that people havent heard....in the words of Peter Griffin,

"Come on"

Argo

Here is my two cents...ive always said that "ITS GAME SHOW MUSIC" not goverment secrets...so whats the big deal.

HOWEVER...as I am creeping into the world of television...I can see things from a different light.

I can understand the concern about releasing music that is part of a currently aired show. Right now "Combination Lock" has close to a complete music package thanks to some very talented people. As it's not set in stone that this music will be used, or if Lock will get to aired stages yet, as a producer and creator I can see how I wouldn't want clean copies of my shows music floating around for anyone to have or use.

Thats just my two cents from the other side of the fence.

John

Especially in the world of game show music? The last time I checked, these "politics" just started up within the past 36 hours after years of dormancy.



A very esteemed member of the online game show community for many years and myself had a talk about this last night on AIM. We agreed that the value of a tape is the price put on it by the manufacturer or retailer. Putting any sort of tangible value on tapes or themes is insane since their values will not go up and since traders aren't the owners of the material.



Wow. You've been collecting for years yet you've hated the time you've spent trying to add material to your collection? With all due respect, you sound bitter that you don't have everything.



Music that has never been heard. Okay...



Is that so?



So you have music you're essentially hoarding but you're criticizing people who have music you don't have.

Here's a Wheel puzzle for you. It's a person.

HYP*CR*T*

Only vowels are left. Do you want to buy a vowel or do you want to solve the puzzle?

As I mentioned above, this sounds like a desperate plea for you to add to your own collection more than a true criticism of the "politics" of theme trading.

"Politics"? I don't recall Kerry or Bush mentioning game show theme collections in any of their speeches or debates.

In fact, if either had done so, I would have decided right then and there to vote for his opponent.

The fact that this was written in earnest, sincere seriousness says everything that needs to be said about the world of theme trading.

"Sure, I have stuff that *I* don't share, but everybody else who does what I do should be ashamed of themselves!"

If people collected music of a show currently in production (let's use the obvious example in "The Price is Right") and...let's say...used the music for their own profit (i.e. a production of their own in which they use said music and make revenue, et al), then that's one thing, and I could understand the gripes completely. But 99.99% of us who collect game show themes simply enjoy listening to the music. Like an escape, if you will. I can see both sides of the story, but that being said...I think this whole subject, on the whole, is way way overblown. Kids, it's just game show theme music. It's not your social security number. It's not the password on your ATM card. That said, you don't have to share it if you don't right to (though sharing it seems to make you look like the second coming of whatever God you believe in). What I'm getting at is, most everyone is taking this too seriously. I mean, folks here devote 9 or 10 pages in a thread over it. Isn't that a little far? Johnny Carson (RIP) gets a couple of pages, but Themegate is nearing double digits in pages. Some would argue this follow up thread borders on that same parallel. Again, it's just music. God knows, FremantleMedia won't hunt everyone down for having Price cues...besides they have bigger issues, like the need to hunt down someone who knows how to produce a half way decent revival.

You guys are absolutely right for calling me a hypocrite. I didnt realize while i was posting the message, but it did sound rather self-centered. Ever since i posted this message, i have been in the process of gathering all my music and posting it. I have posted my list here...


ftp://mrcity.cjb.net/list.txt

This is somewhat incomplete at the moment, but i will be finishing it up later on. If anything or everything on this list gathers some interest i will post the collection on ftp. If there are ones you would like to hear, let me know and i will post the ones requested.

Actual quality of the music may vary, but they are all clean, announcer/appaluse free.

Argo

Television music is a business first and foremost. To publishers and composers it's not "just game show music". First, there are copyright issues. Second, there are royalty issues. Every time music is played publicly (a "performance") the author and publisher are supposed to receive money, generally from the television station, network or production company involved. It doesn't matter whether or not a show is currently in production or on the air. There are agencies (ASCAP and BMI) which act as clearinghouses for performances and royalties. Every second of music played on TPIR or any other television show is logged and royalty payments are calculated from those records. Just because someone possesses a physical recording of a piece of music, they have no ownership rights whatsoever to the music contained in the mp3 file on their hard drive. The ownership of that music rests with the copyright holder.

I know the ENTIRE story of how the TPIR cues came onto the trading circuit, I know all the parties involved, and I'm not telling, period. The music was never intended to be traded among collectors. Anyone who has a copy of internal TPIR music should consider himself the beneficiary of circumstance.

Well, since you've got that list up, I might as well ask...

Is that song labeled as "Take Two cue (80s)" still used?

Point taken, please do tell that to the people who would put up such music for auction.

...where, in all of this discussion that has come up over the last day or so, has anyone ever said anything about putting the cues up for auction?

It was never mentioned in this thread...I just remember via reading on the boards that some opted to do unique things with the music they posessed. Some people trade their music. Some auction things off on eBay. To each his own, that's all.

No one has, Steve. but look at this and kinda get an idea on what he's talking about.

http://gameshow.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5206&hl=

Guess I see your point.

And why am I not surprised at what that link led to...?

I've found that if you ask a composer for his entire cue package, for WWTBAM, for instance and he gives it to you... You say thank you, step to your left, and exit. Then you sit at home and just enjoy the music that was created.

Those who would go and eBay this stuff are just silly. I can't say I want to complain that I don't have the cues for Debt or anything like that. None of this stuff is precious metal or cash that should be really fought over.

Just be happy with what you've stumbled upon in your travels and don't try to profit from it.

If you're told not to share something, don't. But, if you think you can get away with it, you'll do it anyway. If not, you'll get passed up when someone auctions off a thieved Plinko chip or something.

Hell, the politics have always been there, from all around. It has just been so subtle for so long because the same cues have been out there with not much new popping up.

Of course, people come out in mass numbers when it involves Price cues, for which someone described to me as being the holy grail of cues. It is! Most of us would give our left nut to have some of these sacred cues.

There really is no such thing as cue trading. Because those who have the sacred cues usually already have what most of us have, therefore, as was stated before, the rich get richer, and the poor stay poor.

I know the ENTIRE story of how the TPIR cues came onto the trading circuit, I know all the parties involved, and I'm not telling, period. The music was never intended to be traded among collectors. Anyone who has a copy of internal TPIR music should consider himself the beneficiary of circumstance.
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Well it's obviously just another case of Joe Schmo telling Jim Shmo that he's going to give him some music under the verbal agreement that he not release any of it. Jim Schmo then says OK. Then after Jim Schmo gets the music he tells a couple of friends who have something good that he wants. Jim Schmo then trades the Price cues under the verbal agreement that his friends don't mention a word of it to anybody. They agree because they obviosuly want Jim Schmo's price cues. This same thing continues with new people. Then somewhere down the line someone screws up and says... You know what? Screw the agreement. This stuff is to good to keep to myself. Then BANG.... before you know it Casey Buck is posting the stuff online!

So who is at fault in the above scenario. It's obviously the FIRST guy who released any of it to begin with. If you don't want something to get out... The Bottom Line is "DON'T EVEN TRUST YOUR OWN MOTHER". DON'T MAKE A COPY FOR ANYBODY ...PERIOD!

As much as Chris thinks he knows all the parties involved.... the simple fact is that he Doesn't know ALL the parties involved. He knows them up the chain of command to a certain point. But I doubt that he knows the Man or Lady from Score/Fremantle or Price who is originally to blame for giving someone a copy in the first place. No matter how you look at it, the only person to really blame is someone who IS or WAS employed by a company affiliated with the show. Nothing would have ever got out in the first place if it wasn't for that person. For all we know Stan Blitz is to blame. But this is what happens when my advice is not followed. "DON'T EVEN TRUST YOUR OWN MOTHER". DON'T MAKE A COPY FOR ANYBODY ...PERIOD! Well Guess what??? Someone made that first copy. It came from the show and a representative of the show is also to blame. How fitting. ;-)



John

...except that what started this whole discussion was Casey offering up what appear to be some rare cues to anyone who wanted to download them. And he's not nearly the only one who's done so. THAT is what has the "rich" collectors going nuts, because the "poor" people are getting stuff for free. Of course, in the circular logic of traders, that immediately makes those themes less "valuable".

I agree with you that the whole concept of "trading" themes goes out the window this way. But if "rich" collectors don't want to share what they have, there's not much anyone can do about it.

Heck, I agree with John. The branches of the "Tree of blame" extend so far out, it becomes a clusterf*ck of accusations, and turns into more hassle than it's worth.

The days of theme trading are done.As of now, I'm in-different as to whether things are put out there for the taking or not. Doesn't really matter to me. But when I started trading, there weren't millions of "Yahoo Theme Groups" out there or sites with Game Show Themes on them. It was easier to make a trade, and certainly more fun. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sound like an old geezer recalling the "Golden Days", but it's simply impossible for anyone to start "Trading" again...since we basically have two categories...Themes on websites, and themes not on websites...Neither one can be used to attain the other.

Skynet, is all that snow you gut up there starting to enter your brain? These are CUES, not the master price sheet, or nuclear missle codes... It's not a damn top secret covert operation to where noone is allowed to have them, punishable by death by castration with a cigar cutter. NO! These are frickin CUES!! So what if someone posted it. It happens. I say more power to Casey for doing that.

Big deal. Just about every single game show has had a cue release of some sort or another. Are we going to blame every single producer, every single sound manager for this? Cause from the looks of it, you're complaining about this..

I know. Let's blame everyone with the shows, that way, we'll never hear another cue ever again! Good idea.

In a horrible example.. Sun Microsystems vs. Microsoft. Or for that matter, even better yet, The People vs. Microsoft in the anti-trust lawsuit. Microsoft wanted to become richer and richer, and soon, they had a monopoly over everyone. But then, the people saw this and the govt took action. Now, Microsoft isn't as big. They have to share some of their sourcecode and split up their divisions. And now looks. We have new software, new companies, new inventions. The computer realm is 10x better because of it.

In relation, these 2 scenarios are very much alike.

Just to shed some light...

I had a brief conversation with Stan a few years ago about music being released and he didn't seem to know how these cues got out. This was in reference to the cues on Brian's Supersite. It's possible he really did know, but didn't want to say, but I take his word for it.

On a lighter note, he saw a commercial for Grand Theft Auto and was wondering how they got the Price font, but that was readily available.

I get the feeling (and I could be way off base here) that during the Goodson years and before the internet became so popular, cues might have been released more readily. Let's face it. You would most likely either have it on CD or cassette. And unless every single cue from the show was given out at once, why would you bite the hand that feeds you?

I really wonder how many cues there are. Taking into account splitting 1 song and making 2 cues out of it and all the tapes in the audio closet, I'd guess around 250, maybe more.

Well even the rich traders had to start somewhere. I remember the very first Game Show theme I ever received in the clear. The year was 1984 and I was absolutely estatic when I got home from school, opened my mailbox and saw a padded envelope from Score Productions with a tape labeled "FAMILY FEUD" inside.

We all start from somewhere. The bottom line is that the Rich traders arn't holding onto their collections for just no reason at all. They intend on using this music to get even richer in the future. That's hard to do when everyone already has access to this music anyway. That's why they are getting pissed off.

I used to subscribe to that philosophy... but Now I don't give a F***. If I can get something new I don't care how it reaches me. I'm sick of trading because nobody is trustworthy. I must have released about fifty different themes and cues under the agreement that they not be traded or released. Well guess how many are now available among traders? ALL OF THEM!

So there comes a time when you just say... Screw it. To get something you need to give something. But what happens when you give something that you don't want released..... but it always ends up being released anyway? There is virtually no way out. Theme traders just don't win in the end. So that's why I don't trade themes anymore. Back up your truck to my house and take it all. I don't care anymore. It's ridiculous. I've soured on trading like Gene Wood did on announcing. You just get burned and realize that maybe it's not even worth it.

I don't care how valuable you think your theme collection is. Within two years every single theme you have in your possesion will make it's way online no matter how much you think it won't. So why prolong the pain. let's hear this stuff now.

Video traders have understood this philosophy for years which is why we have seen so much great material. I've yet to hear of a Video Hoarder. If the theme Hoarders operated on the same philosophy, then this Forum would be 100 times more enjoyable. Sharing should be what it's all about.



John

Even if its for profit?

Depends on how bad you need the money ;-)


John

Well let me chime in here and say that it should be worth no money at all. As Chris C. stated, the only people that should be making money off of this are the composer and the musicians, per se, per ASCAP and BMI. People selling this stuff on E-Bay and other similar sites have no right to do so, and thus are violating copyright law.

So, no matter how bad you need it, you shouldn't do it... but, nevertheless, it happens anyway, and E-Bay won't step it to stop it anytime soon.

John, I'm not even gonna bother shredding you for this one. I have a feeling Chris C. is going to do a fine job of it on his own. Unless he chooses not to bother, which I would also understand, considering.

Popcorn, anyone? This might be good.... :)

Well.. at least you made me laugh this time. That's pretty good even for you.



John

No need to break out the Jiffy Pop. Mr. Chartier doesn't know whereof he speaks on this subject. He doesn't know what information I have nor my source. That adds up to idle conjecture on his part.

You are correct. I don't know all the ugly details. I prefer to be kept out of it. Casey just keep the music flowing. That's all that matters. ;-)



John

Stan Blits is not the only person with access to TPIR music. There are people at CBS, the recording studio that recorded the music, and former Goodson employees who have had access to it at one time or another.

How do you feel about employees taking the music home with them and allowing others to access it? Should they be reprimanded in some way? That's the Milllion Dollar Question.



John

Obviously.

I don't employ those people so what I think is immaterial.

You don't need to employ them to have an opinion. Let's hear it.


John

Really... I don't know what it matters, as Chris does not run G/T, and has never ran it at any time.

You know, this whole discussion is fascinating, as it proves that so-called "hoarders" can and will almost do anything to ensure they can get cues in the future, but now the tables have turned apparently. I can't add anything new other than what has already been said.

[quote=NicholasM79,Jan 24 2005, 07:04 PM]
[quote=Skynet74,Jan 24 2005, 07:43 PM]You don't need to employ them to have an opinion. Let's hear it.
[/quote]

Really... I don't know what it matters, as Chris does not run G/T, and has never ran it at any time.

-----------------


I'm curious as to what his opinion is. Now he's either going to dodge the question for some odd reason or he's going to answer. Let's see what happens.


John

I must admit, that's a very damn good list you've got there, makes even my collection look pitiful. There's quite a few interesting cues that are on there.

I've also come across people who won't even say WHERE they get the good stuff. I mean, all I wanted was a name. Most likely, these people got it for free from someone, and they just want it all to themselves.

You know, THAT I understand. If I had a stash that I was sharing out, I would be pissed if anyone I shared with mentioned to all and sundry that they got stuff from me, thereby filling my inbox with requests from countless idjits. I would at least expect the courtesy of the middle party confirming with me that it's okay to spread that information around, and to respect my wishes if I did not.

I agree with Chris on this one. It's happened to me before.. so I know how it feels to be bombarded with sudden requests. Ever get tag teamed by three or four people at once on Instant Messenger? That's always a lot of fun! No offense to those of you that have done it. LOL.



John

You sell yourself short. I, for one, issue a GREAT DEAL of offense at people who have done that. :)

Why is my answer so important to you? Are you suggesting that I pilfered music from Goodson-Todman?

Well, I don't know that I'd refer to them as "hoarders", but there are actually quite a number of video collectors that prefer to keep their collections tightly under wraps. There are exclusive trading circles, some of which are quite small, and only populated by those traders who personally know one another. Some don't even want the details of existing titles to become public knowledge.

And as far as those folks are concerned, either you respect those wishes, or you don't. I'm guessing those that don't aren't part of those groups for very long.

-Kevin

But you noted the difference yourself -- these traders keep to themselves, and don't brag publicly about what they have. This is in stark contrast to the "ha ha, I have this theme and you don't, now worship me!" crowd.

No I don't think you personally pilfered anything. But it's my theory that you know people who have..... otherwise you wouldn't have such a difficult time answering such an easy question. You are obviously afraid to offend certain people with your answer. Therefore you don't answer at all. You've seen my question. You have acknowleged it. But you are continuing to beat around the bush as if you are OJ on trial. Such a simple question Chris.

[b]How do you feel about employees taking the music home with them and allowing others to access it? Should they be reprimanded in some way?b]

We arn't doing brain surgery here. I'm just asking for your opinion. I don't care if it has relevence or not. Just let us know what it is.



John

I suggest you rethink your theory.

Your question is a straw man and I'm not going to answer it. Furthermore, it's none of your business.

Let it go, John.

Yeah.... I don't need to go into it any further. You've already given us your answer by simply refusing to answer. Feel free to lock the topic.


John

Wrong again, John. The current and former employees of MGP and CBS whom I know are not thieves as you suggest.

Spoken like a person who CLEARLY doesn't understand the meaning of the simple phrase "Let it go".